The way to Damascus, An interview with Ahmad Mouaz Alkhatib

The way to Damascus

An interview with Ahmad Mouaz Alkhatib

with Orient TV

16/11/2012

• The Interviewer: Dear viewers, Welcome to a new episode of (the road to Damascus). Our guest today is Sheikh Mouaz Alkhatib who became a prominent name from the beginning of the Syrian revolution as one of the Islamic scholars who moved towards peaceful movement and took a clear stand against the oppression that such peaceful movement was suffering. Because of this stand, he was arrested 3 times before he decide to leave the country to support the revolution and make its voice heard to the outside world.

  Sheikh Alkhtib is not only a man with a political view but he has views on in Islamic jurisprudence and laws that is viewed as revolutionary. He was taught by his father, Imam and prominent scholar of Damascus, Mouhamed abo alfarag Alkhatib, and other scholars like sheikh Hamdi Juijati and sheikh Abdul-Ghani Aldaker and sheikh Abdul-Kader Al-Arnaut. He studied applied geophysics and worked as petro physicist for nearly six years in Al-Furat petroleum company, as he was also the imam for the Grand Umayad mosque in Damascus twenty years ago and also preached in other mosques.

• Interviewer: Hello sheikh Mouaz
• Mouaz: Welcome Mr Ayman, God bless you
• Interviewer: Why is it you are here in Cairo? what made you come here?
• Mouaz: The general circumstances didn’t help, you can see the state of the country and I have received messages that gave the impression as long as I am in the country, problems will happen, so I decided to leave as it might be more useful for me and it may benefit the public.
• Interviewer: What can you tell us about the activities and the work you have done and your support to non-violence, and a peaceful movement ? despite all this you were arrested three times!
• Mouaz: Truly I am very sad about what is happening in Syria and feel sorry for this regime that flops around and doesn’t even realize its own interests. I don’t belong to any political side, neither in the past nor in the future, and I believe that the religious umbrella that I work under can accommodate all people, eventually, we all want a stable, safe society with harmony among all its components and shades. Of course our Syrian people, and this is a phrase I always repeat, is the result of ten thousand years of civilization and I am proud of this wide variety in its matrix. We say that it is like a farm that was planted, by God’s will, and it contains all types of roses. So anything that moves us to the stability of this society, we will move towards it. The truth is, no one in Syria wanted in any way and form what is happening now to happen, and the regime the only entity responsible for that, because people’s rights can’t be ignored or bypassed, and I truly believe that the type of religion that augment injustice is a fake religion whatever its called. I always pressed an initiative after an initiative to end the troubles in a way that spares lives and end the troubles for both sides, because from a religious and a humane point of view, I say that its prohibited to shed any drop of blood from any side, but the regime is actually acting thoughtlessly, and each initiative I tried was followed by an arrest, it is very strange and very sad.
• Interviewer: Instead of dialog, they choose arrest
• Mouaz: Exactly, and from the first dialog committee that was established in the country and from the first month of the revolution. The committee consisted of twelve members including myself, of course we never met in person, always postponed as in the next few days, then I presented the first initiative and of course I was arrested after it. A year later, another initiative and another arrest and I am not sad about the arrest. Of course it is shameful that the one…
• Interviewer: OK, We would like to know about these initiatives to give us perspective if possible?
• Mouaz: For example, they get annoyed even if you mention some of these things. The initiative in summary : we are to write a draft that guarantees the public rights in a suitable way, then we present this draft to the bodies that want to review it and then they can modify it the way they see fit but we also as a committee retain the right to modify as well, and so on to keep modifying with tolerance to each other till we reach a acceptable formula to the regime. After that we present it to the presidential palace for approval. If such approval is reached i could then tell the people frankly; the regime said something that I agree about, Syria is facing a big conspiracy, but who is helping to pass this conspiracy? The regime is. So should the people, in order not to allow the conspiracy to continue, ignore their rights for another fifty years at the expense of their own blood, children and dignity? The ball is in the regime court, we will tell the regime: what sort of formula suits you ? we will not work in secrecy, we will work as a clean and transparent opposition that care about the country and explain the regime’s points to solve the problem.They also represent the people, both armed movements and civil movements, as long as they want the country’s best interest they have the right to modify or object on what the regime specify and we will play a mediator   role. To be frank some colleagues don’t agree with, but its reasonable : we said that in each family disagreements happen, and a religious or a social mediator comes and help solve the problem. The danger facing the country is greater than what anyone can imagine, We want to solve the problem so we will mediate between the two sides tell we reach a formula, all away from spotlight and media, and we reach the minimum, we will call for a national conference that includes all the important figures that care about the country’s interest (I said this in details), these figures will ask the regime for few things. I don’t want any foreign hand to reach the country, we will tell the regime that we are giving you a golden opportunity to have a national solution from the country’s own people.For example, the release of all political and non-political prisoners if there is no evidence to condemn them, You (the regime) don’t accept foreign pressure and you say there are foreign dictations, OK , but those prisoners are the country’s own citizens, they are our children and brothers. As for people who were pushed for armed action, if you (the regime) want to end the problem, you can’t end it on the expense of one side! for example, I will mention one of the discussions with a figure close to the regime:

  He said: “anyone who drops arms within three days will be issued with an amnesty”

  I said: “I refuse this, if you want to solve the problem you have to give this person guarantees”

  He said : “So what do you suggest?”

  I said: “This person who is carrying arms is defending his home, his honour and his proprieties, which is a legal and a legitimate right as no one will accept to be violated and remain silence.” I essentially don’t encourage armed action but the regime coerced people to carry arms,
  I continued: “so these people should be issued amnesty till the end of the year on the condition not to use his weapon after the issuing of the amnesty”. that means people keep their weapon, until they see that the regime is not cheating or tamper with negotiations, we didn’t come to the negotiations to cheat people, we want to negotiate to guarantee everybody’s’ rights and to stop the state from breaking down.

  In fact I want, if you may, to send a message to the Syrian people saying that there is a great danger surrounding the country. We do not want the state to collapse. We only want this corrupted regime to go away. We do care about every person inside the country. Alas, all these initiatives were received in an arrogant way that that sounded like: this is not your business and why are you interfering in this matter!

• Interviewer: As in who are you to speak ? who elected you to represent them?
• Mouaz: Exactly. This attitude is not accepted, both the elder and younger citizens have the right to save their country. And up till now, we maintain that if there is a solution that save the nation from the regional and international hands that tamper with it, we should look for this solution. I repeat what I have mentioned frequently, the dialog with regime has stopped. Dialog can be done in times of ease, but now the nation is being slaughtered. If the regime is willing to have a serious negotiation  to end the problem, be sure that, there will be people who accept to negotiate, but under certain conditions and under international guarantees. I am ready to negotiate anyone but in public, in a televised seminar for instance, but not at the expense of public rights.
• Interviewer: But Sheikh Mouaz, you always represent the nonviolent, pacifism trend who looks for middle solutions. However, there are people has been tortured, kids murdered, women raped, and possessions destroyed. The time for dialog was supposed to be during ease but now, as you mentioned, the fire kills all and there are lots of massacres, so do you think there would be anyone might accept to shake hands with these criminals, after all of these blood?
• Mouaz: Negotiations do not mean giving up our rights. Negotiations aim to end this crises with a minimum damage of our country.
• Interviewer:  May I ask you a question might embarrass you? do you expect that they will say who are you (to make such a negotiations) ? and then to say in an insulting way that you are belong to us and you can not take decisions as you are honest or rather not a citizen! Anyway, do you think, after what has happened, and after seeing the legendary steadfastness of Syrians and they soon will fall (after God willingness), Do you think they have begun reviewing their information, the way they deal with people and accept, for example, a transitional period that will finish when Bashar Al-Assad get out of Syria? or they are still opinionated with the same illness mentality?
• Mouaz: Ok, despite the question is embarrassing, I would say: There are two things to consider in order to answer your question. First, I do not think the regime will respond because of his unprecedented arrogance and vanity. But, from the political, mental and legitimacy side….
• Interviewer: we cannot cancel role of the dialogue and diplomacy.
• Mouaz: We always must keep this option in mind. Because maybe it might come a moment when there is no other option. Even the regime might arrive to this point, this is not because of  his awaken mind , but because negotiation would be his last rout to try. If that would ever happen, someone have then negotiate, not to keep the regime, but to leave with the least damages. You can see clearly what happened to the country. This is defiantly not to consolidate the legitimacy of this regime! This regime already lost its legitimacy for everyone inside Syria or abroad .The regime frankly committed suicide, and we are sad because the Syrian people demands were very simple, and the regime could avoid all the trouble if they had conducted simple steps. But because of their arrogance, which is like drugs, lead them to such position. and all of this lead Syria to such a crises. I currently can not blame any person on their behavior now. People are being destroyed days and nights and I ask them to have more patient more!!!
• Interviewer: Very true. OK then just to avoid confusion, is it possible to call what you called “negotiations” an exit arrangements?
• Mouaz: Leaving arrangements.
• Interviewer: Leaving arrangements then, because negotiations can allow compromises and settlements between the two sides!
• Mouaz: yes, yes.
• Interviewer: Have they negotiated you while you were their prisoner?
• Mouaz:  No, not at all
• Interviewer: so it was just for nothing?!
• Mouaz: I honestly have not idea yet about the reason for my arrest.
• Interviewer: Well, when you were under arrest, any of the officers in the intelligence facility has discussed or debated with you? for instance hasn’t anybody asked you about your proposal? why? what? ….or at least why you were in the place where you had been arrested?
• Mouaz: No, there were very very general questions , like what is your connection to this person? what do you think of that person? have you taken part in that demonstration? all the questions have no value at all. I think the official departments who arrest in Syria are not related to the decision making. They are just like an executer, and maybe in reality, many of them feel unhappy (or even hurt) for doing so. I can tell you honestly an example bring tears to my eyes once I remember; One of the prison guards was tough and mean. And my nature and feeling, which reflect the way we have been raised up in our society,  is that those are humans after all and they are imprisoned more than we are. As I was a prisoner looking for freedom and they are prisoners who accepted slavery and can’t get out of it. So I always said to that guards, when he gives me the bread loaf “thank you”.  I even sometimes said: “Please pray for me my son”, and he would frown at me. After many days, while he was handing me a bottle of water as I remember, I was in a lot of stress and anguish so I said to him: “Please pray for me my son asking Allah to relief my distress”. And I swear to God, with eyes like those of innocent children he looked at me and said: “may Allah relief both you and me” then he looked down and walked away!
• Interviewer: God is the greatest!
• Mouaz: Our people are oppressed, the old and the young are oppressed. I wish and hope that there are wise people left. There is nothing as a whole mass of corruption or a whole mass of righteousness. I am sure that inside this eroded, arrogant regime there are people who know the right and who are longing for freedom more than us, because they saw more than what me and you have seen. For those people, I wish they will be able to hold the truth inside their hearts and never let it go, and their chance to serve the country will come. I don’t want anyone to think that we feud with everyone in a certain body, We feud with people who are unjust and corrupted. But for those who have not been involved in shedding our blood, they are like our brothers and will be respected.
• Interviewer: So your message is that revenge and collective punishment are not accepted. No one will talk about punishing a ton or a department because it had a corrupted figure. The law will be judging people according to their own deeds, it will be judging individuals for their action not their afflation with any group.
• Mouaz: My dear brother, There is nothing better than the words of Allah, who says in the Holy Quran “no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another”. It is actually not a person’s guilt that his brother, for example,  a corrupted security official. if that is not something to do with him! It is not a human choice to be born as Arab, Circassian, Christian, Muslim or Alwaite. Allah chooses these things to be in life, and it is not acceptable, for any religious, either for legal nor moral reasons, to decide a collective punishment according to it. I herby warn everybody in Syria that, we do not want to act or behave in a bad moral just like these people. They use collective punishment techniques. This is a very painful and I ask everyone, who has been involved in such collective punishment,  not to participate anymore for his sake and the others’. it is not reasonable when a street in one city is brutally destroyed, their neighbors in the adjacent street starts partying and dancing as a form of cheerful. This is shameful. I understand for example from an cruel army to enter in order to….
• Interviewer:  …. to follow orders!
• Mouaz: Yes, with my rejection, though! However, a collective celebration is not acceptable and this opens the door of a great evil that might lead to uncontrolled problems. Everyone held accountable for what he has personally done, and this has nothing to do with his sect. Furthermore, everybody who drags people into this is the one who holds responsibility. No body, I can confidently say, even those who take up arms, is thinking of collective revenge. Because this is morally and illegally wrong and it cannot be accepted. It is you who decide this, not me. please do not lead people to this disaster.
• Interviewer: What happened in Qudsaya and Harasta must not be repeated. Wises, of all the components in Syrian society, are able to control individuals. Moreover, people, who have respect within the society, should make sure not to repeat such  mistakes, which raise a lot of hatred in the community. No one wants for such a hatred to appear. We will hear from Sheikh Mouaz, just after the break, what happened with him during the bombing of Palestine Security Branch in Damascus. So please stay with us.

==== Break at 16:07 minutes ====

• Interviewer: welcome back…. So at the time of explosion, you were you imprisoned in a closed room in at the Palestine security branch?
• Mouaz: Yes.
• Interviewer: How?
• Mouaz: Well I had been called for an interview. However, I was surprised to be taken to a white room with a detachable ceiling containing and two blankets. I have waited there for a day, two and three days… then I became restless and i asked them to interrogate me! Very simple interrogation took place, there were simple questions that I never expected. But to be fair, the treatment was gentle, although the insulation, to be honest, had very bad effects that I have not anticipates. It caused me insomnia as there was nothing in the room but a light and a camera. On maybe day number thirteen, I was about to pray on a blanket when suddenly a very loud noise occurred and the door lock broke, the dust started to fill the room and I felt confused whether I should go out or not?
• Interviewer: Maybe you though it was a set-up?
• Mouaz: I did not know but there were moments of hesitation, and I think thirty to fifty seconds had lapsed when the main explosion took place. Of course, I had only seen what happened to me in Tom and Jerry cartoon. I flew back with the door that was plucked out from its roots and hit the opposite wall! We did flew to hit the opposite wall. The roof collapsed and the lights went off, the room was as if you put your head a bag of flour, and oh what a thud! The room was on the first floor and I think it was about fifty to sixty meters from the building entrance, I have never imagined in my whole life such a loud noise could exist. Like they say, I said my last prayers; I remembered my children and felt that death is inevitable. Seconds later, I realized that I didn’t die. There was a little bathroom behind my room, and I remembered there was a little window there. I rushed to it and started to take deep breaths and wash my head with water before it stops, and it actually did few minutes later. I was taken by surprise of course and I looked like a ghost covered in….
• Interviewer: In white?
• Mouaz:not in white, it was grey in fact. I was surprised to find another two men; they must have been detained in the next two rooms, and a lady in the room next to them and the three of them went out. If locks didn’t break by the explosion we would have been suffocated to death. I knew where we were detained but the others were asking about our locations. They were kidnapped somewhere and brought here. We all went out of the room. At that time we were hardly breathing because of the dense dust I even felt blood was coming out with breaths, breathing was very difficult. There was an interrogation room just next to us, part of its thick wall was destroyed. We sat there and the air started to circulate and some fresh air got in and we caught our breaths. Few men came in, armed of course, I swear I am going to tell what had happened as there is no point in adding anything now. The three of us were there and when those security members entered the room, we told them: ‘please don’t worry about us, and is there anything we can help, brothers?’. We are like brothers now and this is not a place of enmity. Yes we feud with the regime because of its corruption and injustice but those young men are simple people who are doing their national service. They might be a neighbour, from the same area, or brothers from a town we respect…they are all the brothers from our country.We did not want to be like savages in this time because these are our morals, after that we will carry on our way and demand the regime to step down. But that moment was a moment of magnanimity. And for our audience knowledge, I read in the prophet biography that in one of the battles, they fought in the morning but offered food to each others in the evening! I know that some of our brothers will object now, they will say: this is a corrupted regime, how do you offer help to such people?! My answer is that we treat other with our morals, and even Jesus, peace be upon him, was quoted about if your brother slapped your right cheek, turn the left one to him. There are certain morals that are agreed on from all genuine religions and sides, and these morals are rooted deeply in our society. So coming back to the story, we told the men not to worry about us, because those young men were in panic as the explosion was horrific regardless, I don’t have information about who did it, some people said it was the regime itself , others said it was this particular front, I don’t know. But it was a moment of severe pain for everybody. So we said ‘OK you don’t worry about us and is there anything to do’. One of them said: ‘pray for us for the ease of these strains’ others looked at us, in despite, saying: ‘you want liberty ha, you want liberty!’ Well, this is a place that we were about to die in and on top of that you want to undermine us?! We stayed about an hour then they took us down to the ground floor. The rooms’ doors were open and the floor was flooded with water. The detachable ceilings were collapsed and air conditioners had fallen on the floor. We knew later that the door of one of the cells was opened so the prisoners got out and broke the locks on the other cells and tried to get out but they were surrounded and brought back in again. We were moved afterwards into another security branch few hundred meters away.

• Interviewer: OK, well, this attitude of you, could be attributed to the way you studied and the open, moderate, damascene Islamism you grow up with?
• Mouaz: I don’t think it is a matter of academic as much as it’s the socio-religious atmosphere we live in long time ago.
• Interviewer: so you paired the social element and …..
• Mouaz: Yes, this how we live.
• Interviewer: Because of the diverse elements of the society in addition to the religious reflections.
• Mouaz: I will tell you something I read in Ibn-Battota the traveller’s book. He said, long time ago “Damascus is the place where no stranger or scholar perishes” it’s a town that is open to everyone, and people of Damascus love all people, all Syrians love all the people. I will tell an ironic tale: We had a foreign scholar in who staid five years to study in one institute in Damascus. He told me: during my residence in Syria, I never ate in my place because wherever I go, someone’s invite me to eat at their place, even if they don’t know me. Afterwards, this scholar became of a high status in another country. He told me: five years and I was never invited to anyone’s house despite my high status, unlike Damascus we I always have been invited even though I was a poor student. So our morals is that if we see even a sick cat, while we are walking on the street, we feel sorry and our hearts ache, let alone our feelings for humans. In the Quran it says “Alas for mankind! There never came a Messenger to them but they used to mock at him”So, for us if somebody deviates to the wrong, you don’t think that we crow them, we really feel sorry for them. All the prophets came to explain, some were killed and some were tortured, in the cause of saving the humanity. So this is the core and the stem of the religion, and all the secondary matters are things that complete this essential message. There is no grudge, in religion, the way commoner might understand it. No of course, there is no grudge even amongst the commoners. I bear the regime full responsibility for sabotaging the ethics and structure of the Syrian community. The Syrians are forgiving tolerant people regardless of their background. They lived together for long time with no problems. Even in the Holy Quran God says “God will judge between them on Resurrection concerning that wherein they disagree”.We are commanded in this Life to spread justice, tolerance and goodness. I follow Islam and believe it is true. However, I would not put myself as a judge on people saying that this person goes to hill fire and that person goes to paradise. All I can say is that, Allah has clarified for us the right and wrong paths. Then whoever follows the wrong path will bear the consequences and that whoever follows the right path will be rewarded. My whole duty is just spreading goodness.

• Interviewer: Are the advocates of civil resistance from the scholars and clerics a majority or a minority?
• Mouaz: The truth is that most people no longer bear the regime. You know more than me (Mr. Ayman) that people are oppressed. In fact, there are people, within the regime apparatus, speaks badly about the system in their private gatherings more than I or you do! Simply because they live the tragedy more than me and you. All people want to get rid of the corruption and the injustice. We had no personal problem with anyone at the beginning but they are the ones who took things the wrong direction. I blame them for burning all escape boats. This is unbelievable, how they left the state enemy they claim to be standing against and resisting. I have no objection to the (declared) foreign policy Syria had adopted and I believe it was the right thing at a time, and we agree with what makes us a strong player in axis of resistance and we are soldiers on this journey against world imperialism. It is even our duty to reject foreign interference. However, if only they had spent 5% of what they have already spent against their people, we would have liberated Palestine if not Andalusia!
• Interviewer:I like your phrase “the declared foreign policy”, as the discussions under the table were different. Today there were leaked documents and correspondence between Bashar Al-Assad and Netanyahu regarding peace negotiations, including what happened in Turkey, where it was possible to reach an agreement to be signed in 2010 unless the Syria Revolution started. Therefore, we support the declared part of the foreign policy but the problem is with the secret part which we do not know.Has this infiltrative regime managed to extend its hands to the religion institution and buy influence and attract loyalty in it?

• Mouaz: Sure. The religious institution is like any other apparatus in the state. There is a lot of corruption and bribery in it. This is shameful, indeed. To be a cleric and then fall into such thing is outrageous. Some of these corrupted people are known by name, and I do not want to mention their names here. However, the majority of them are oppressed people that have little choice. They know the right and wrong. However, because of the massive oppression of the regime they adapted their attitude to avoid getting into trouble. Over 50 years, the regime managed to make people lose the courage to stand against wrong, but rather make them adapt to the situation.Many people ask why Syrian people act this way. But it is not only about this time. More than 200 years ago; there was a governor of Syria that forbade eating “qatayef” (a type of desserts). That governor was really insane and it looks like there are a lot of these insane people now. The problem is that the religious body got used to adapting to the situation to carry on running its affairs, the good and the bad ones. So now it became like a habit. Some clerics adapt their attitudes to secure their mosques and students and avoid getting them into trouble. However, people’s rights are more important than securing a mosque and its students. The cleric adapts his attitude for the sake of his mosque or institution, but the nation’s rights are much more important.I can find an excuse for this behaviour on individual basis. However, when things affect the whole nation, one should not look for a single benefit for a narrow group but should make a sacrifice for the sake of the nation. Some people might say, if I were to speak out, I would be harmed by the state. Here I do not ask them to speak against the state; All I ask is just to try to awaken the goodness in people’s hearts. Sadly, The respond of these people was that, if I were to speak out  then the state monitors will lay an observation on my name and I might lose my pulpit and my position!! Alas, what is the importance of the pulpit without being able to speak out the right things!

• Interviewer: What is the benefit from the pulpit if the scholar does not say what he believes in?
• Mouaz: It is unreasonable for a cleric to climb his pulpit and commends the regime; then when he sits with you privately he starts insulting the regime saying that it presses on him. Still, scholars are the life boat when people are lost  allah says in the Quran [when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it] Aal-Imran 187.  It is, indeed, their duty and I respect the person who resigns and sits in his house if unable to say the truth on his pulpit. Allah says in the Quran (Allah burdens not a person behind his scope) Albaqara 286. However it is a disaster to turn the wrong into right and to turn the right into wrong, or not to say the rightness, this is a big problem. I’m not pushing anybody over their capacity. Some people think it is only either white or black! so either attack the state or be extravagant in praise. In fact, keeping goodness and righteousness in the hearts of the people, is a very great job within what we can tolerate. Whoever is able to announce the right and expose the falsehood, that is even better. In all cases, we should not change the facts and this is the minimum required.
• Interviewer: Do you think that the regime had started to attract men and clerics after the events of Hama in 1982, because he felt the importance of their loyalty or there might be no link?
• Mouaz: Since the 1980s, things got much clearer. However, from the first days of Baath Party in power, it used clerics and all parts of the society including the political, economic and religious ones. One of the close associates with the regime once told me that they left no leader or senior person in any community. One thing in Nigeria caught my attention is that when I saw the president delivering a speech in the memory of Independence; there were several ex-presidents of the republic standing behind him, one of them has even been released from prison for 24 hours to join the celebration and be returned back to jail afterwards. There were also several prime ministers there. Even in Lebanon, despite its fragile status, there are many of the ex-prime ministers. Therefore, that if a political gab happens, many could fill the space regardless of who is the best. We do not have any of this in Syria; instead we do have a kind of polarization in all things in an unreasonable way.
• Interviewer: the regime’s policy is that only one person has a sacred sanctity and that is the President. Nowadays  it is Bashar al-Assad and in the previous days was Hafez al-Assad. There is nobody in the second rank and none in the third rank either. You will only find non influence people in the twentieth rank! There was once a joke says that the prime ministers like Al-Zoubi or Al-Etri, who were once heads of the parliament, would not get but few votes if they joined the election. It is really strange how they got a prime ministerial position! We will have a short break before we talk about regime plans to deepen polarization so stay please with us.

====  Break at 31:00 minutes ====

• Interviewer: Welcome back… So were there any plans to attract clerics, either Muslims or Christians, from different groups. Have they given them any advantages in order to attract them? And, from your point of view, do you think that might have changed the religious atmosphere  in Syria?
• Mouaz: All Syria, in both religious and unreligious aspects, suffers a severe retardation. For instant, we have very active traders and many brilliant religious potentials, and we have young people whose political awareness astonishes me but they have not got the right chance. However, certainly the religious mood has changed over time into blessing the regime, in addition to fix its roots and foundations. However, religion is a whole undivided unit and apparently some parts of it are not effective anymore. We cannot get into details now because that would take a whole episode.The religion has its own behaviour, provisions and core, and we all agree that we should not lessen any of them. For instance, we should maintain the prayers but we know that Prophet Muhammad peace upon him once said: “whoever his prayer does not prevent him doing bad action, then his prayer are for nothing”.  The harmful person who earns illegal money and offends everyone else, what usefulness does they learn from their prayers! All of these are well explained in many verses and Hadiths, for instance “Whoever does not give up false speech and act upon it, Allah has no need of their giving up food and drink during fasting) (narrator Abu Huraira, in Albaniany, authentic Hadith).  What is the benefit of fasting that affects only on the dry tongue? Unfortunately, the religious phenomenon turned into a superficial phenomenon, even frankly, Syrian government built many institutes for teaching Quran, which is a good thing. However, did they only intend to increase the numbers of Quran memorisers. Which is also a good thing but I want the heart of the religion. I want the religious person to have a balance within the society not a trouble maker. The government frankly used them as Baathist religious organization, as the Revolutionary Youth Union, Vanguard and Farmers Union Organizations….

• Interviewer: The revolutionary Endowments organization…
• Mouaz: For example, an organization that supports government policies, this is something every country tries to do. However, if the government was more reasonable, it would encourage the moderate religious climate so it can take advantage of it and strengthening the whole country. Developed countries know that when people are strong then the state is strong, but unfortunately the primitive underdeveloped countries think that the security system has to be strong in order to have a strong country. My dear brother, these regimes ends sooner or later and its members are mortal, unlike to people. The repressive states and dictatorships consider that if the pocket of the leader is full then the state is strong. While the fact is that countries would be truly powerful if the people are strong. The republican president does not need to steal even one penny, if his people are OK then he is OK. These regimes used the religious system  in the same way and through tradeoffs. There are some weak people and frankly the people on the front were not qualified, and this is shameful.I am a mosque preacher and I swear that sometimes I feel ashamed of some of the speeches at mosques. For example, what happened in Kafar Souseh in Damascus, when few neighbourhoods were demolished. The Imam of one Kafar Souseh’s mosque tried to convince people that this is an order and Muslims should be patient and remain patient. My dear brother, I consider patience on injustice in such a case as rebellion over all religion. The religion did not come to agree with the leaders, the religion order people to be patient toward public interests. Some religion concepts need a special lecture. In a Hadith of the Prophet, peace upon him: (if the ruler whips your back and steals your money, be Patient). This is true under only one condition, when there are some institutions in the society that ensure people’s rights. Islam tells you then do not make chaos at that moment because eventually you will get your rights….

• Interviewer: but when the institutions are confiscated totally by the ruler….
• Mouaz: If everything are confiscated, then anyone raises his voice for the rights is  the master of martyrs, and (one of the greatest kinds of good dead, the master of the martyrs and a man stand in front of unjust ruler to straighten things until he was killed by the ruler). Our nation is really permitted to the sake of the ruler.I can mention you an incident that occurred when I was Imam once in a mosque opposite of a church. Once I thought that I am Imam of the mosque and the church was just opposite of us, so we are a neighbour since ever. so at least we should do sort of societal relations. This is, by the way, a very good thing in religious aspect, personal aspect, and on the national aspect etc… At that time, I did not want to go alone to have a wider area of dealing, so I spoke to one of the cleric in the area and this was around Christmas and the New Year. I told him “let us go and visit our neighbours and congratulate them”. The cleric replied: “Had you got a permission from the Security forces”!! I do not want to mention his name, he is a well-known figure nowadays. I was really surprised, I am a mosque preacher I want to visit a neighbour of mine, so why should I take the Security permission!! The religious body became oppressed to such a degree, even in such a matter we should do whatever they want, brother, this is my legitimate and natural right, it is not their business!!

• Interviewer: Their brain are washed.
• Mouaz: it is not reasonable at all. Honestly, the concentration is on the partial things, it is totally not reasonable that thousands of youth spend many years of their lives studying minor things that can be covered by Allah’s forgiveness. There is an incidence I would like to share, once Sheikh Al-Ghazali, God has mercy on him, asked in a lecture: “O brothers, worship is very important and morals are very important, but Where is the core.. Where is the priority?” All people shouted “of course worship”, he said “no, morality is more important than worship”, people became angry so he told them “this is not my words, these words of our Prophet peace upon him, he once said in an authentic Hadith (The Signs of a hypocrite are three: he lies once he speaks, he break his promises, and he cheated when he is trusted, even if he fasts, prays and pretends to be a Muslim)”. This is the summary, we do worship in order to support our great core.Unfortunately, not only in Syria but in most of the oppressive regimes, the religion is pushed to became very shallow and superficial. It becomes Ok for people to fight for instance. Sometimes I get a very strange questions from a western countries because of the superficial issues which has been developed in our countries. Once I get a question from Islamic centre: it sayed “is it OK for a Muslim woman to drive a car? Is it OK it she get a driving license?” The second question was “if she gets a driving license, will she allowed to drive then?” Oh brother what kind of question is this? And they wanted the answer with an authentic  proof, honestly! I was worried where to get him the required proof? In Islam, things are suppose to be allowed and not forbidden. They should be a proof only if something is forbidden. Finally, I found Hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari said “The best women who ride camels are the one from Quraish”. Our religion is very wide. The religion does not clash with people life and it is not against life. For instance, if we were sitting on the edge of the Nile and we started to build walls to prevent flood and people from drown, but this is does not stop our common sense.

• Interviewer: Are you afraid of the religious nature that started to appear during Syrian revolution and its impact on minorities? And why?
• Mouaz: Not at all … “Minorities” is a very wide subject. However, I may point out a very important issue, do you know the ideology of all Arab armies? whether they are secular or non-secular? None of the Arab armies adopt a Muslim trend, but still the call for all soldiers, during October’s war in 1973, was God is the greatest (Allahu Akbar). Because this is something nobody can argue (in our culture). As a Muslim, the call of “Allah is the greatest”, represents a great value for me, Christian has the same believe, Also for Ismaili, Druze and Alwaite ….. “Allah is the greatest” is respected by everybody. For example, if I saw my house shelled by rockets, what would I say? Che Guevara? Fidel Castro? Ho Chi Minh? Or what shall to say?! If I were to go out to challenge injustice and within minutes I might be killed, then my soul go to Allah(our god) by my bloods, so what shall I say? And why I went out in the first place? I go to challenge injustice because I believe it is my legitimate duty to defend my country. It is my duty to ask for justice and rights.All these things are spontaneous and innate, but it has been turned into a crime in Syria, and frankly they are now trying to over-increase it, and Western media makes it even worse when exaggerating. There are currently very strong campaigns to show it as extremists! I can mention to you an example, In Daraa, where the revolution first started,  women were cooking for soldiers, although those destroyed the city! However, they are our children after all… and they are hungry. Yes, the army is hungry, they enter every city and they only want to eat! But still they are our people. Back to the question, let’s assume for instance that I saw my brother died; I would say “Allah is the greatest”. If I had been arrested, I would say “Allah is the greatest”. If I were facing death I would say “Allah is the greatest” and this is normal. Somebody said, why do call Islamic names like companions’ names on your battalions? The answer is very clear because the whole trend in Syria is like this, and we cannot change our identity. What kind of names we can use instead? Fidel Castro, for example?! It will not work! What is the relationship? What are the components? What is our ideal? This government unfortunately kept no respect for anyone not even for their selves!

• Interviewer: Not even for any current model or ideal. They destroyed the respect of them all. They also did not allow to say “Allah is the greatest” or to relate to our tradition.
• Mouaz: Exactly, for example, to make people relate to the current ideals, like those who made independence of Syria. May I ask you one thing…. have you read about the history for the post-independence period in Syria? Those great Syrians who were as shiny as gold. Do you think Syrian students read or even know the biography of Shukri Al-Koatly? Fares Al-Khoury? Hashim Al-Atassi? Lutfi Al-Hafar? Those people were loyal to this country in a great, very sophisticated way. Syria in 1950s was a very well developed country; the economy was strong at that time, for Instance, Khalid Al-Adem, who is considered a criminal for the current regime, was very wealthy. He used to pay from his own pocket to cover the deficit in the budget. He never steals…. Also Shukri Al-Koatly used to do the same.I heard from Mr. Haitham Al-Maleh, the personal lawyer of Shukri Al-Koatly, that Mr. Al-Koatly used to sell his own personal farms in Gawtah (in Damascus suburb) in order to give people who asks him for money. Some people thinks presidents are always like the leaders of current time who own everything within the country! Shukri Al-Koatly had not spent except what he was allowed by law or he used his own pocket otherwise. Finally, he died and he was indebt! Very strange to believe nowadays.There is another story I would like to pass to this generation, just to let them realise how things used to be. Hashim Al-Atassi the ex-president of Syria was an elderly man and is considered the spiritual father of Syrians. In winter the presidential palace in Mohajerren, a high area in Damascus, was so cold; Mr. Hashim Al-Atassi asked for heater for the palace so his assistance bought a big heather costs 300 Syrian Pound in the early fifties. Mr. Hashim was panic when he knew the price and he said “people will think we are stealing the state” and then he asked to return the heater. His assistance tried to convince him that this heater was for Presidential Palace and they cannot use a small heater like the one in a regular house in the middle of desert. Even from a legal aspect (People should be dealt with, according to their positions) and this was for a Presidential Palace after all. At the end, the president refused to sign the purchase form and he rejected having an expensive heater in the palace. He brought afterwards part of sheet from his house to cover his knees when it was cold!

  These icons have been hidden by this regime in order to keep these generations in a dark spot and to mislead them so they know no body but the corrupted people. Of course, people then might believe this regime is the only option and there is no better situation no matter how retardation system we had!

  Our country is rich, very rich in men. It was and will always be, and I am sure the situation will turn soon into positive. We do not have extremism. Extremism has been supported and developed by the regime, who injects people with hatred. This regime is the only responsible about the tensions and reactions. I believe there is a big crisis and of course there might be margin of errors. However, we will be doing our best, with everyone, no matter of his affiliation or background, to reduce these effects. I am hoping that people will return to be one hand. This country includes lots of goodness sources and sure that will not be lost.

• Interviewer: Do you think we are heading towards to a religious state after the revolution?
• Mouaz: A religious state in a sense that scares the West…… (Finished recording)